Cloak of Darkness vs. The Tholian Web

0:27 Welcome to the Track Wars Podcast, the one podcast that dares to answer the most important question in fandom, which is better Star Treker Star Wars by going through both franchises and chronological release order. I am Kenny Madison, the Star Trek contingent with me as we're always it's the co host with the mo host. Aspen Webster, the Star Wars contingent. Kenny, you are like locked in today. It's important to be locked in because sometimes you kind of get stuck in a web of your own design, well not really your own design, but maybe the Tholean's design. Or maybe my design. But yeah, I drapped you. Possibly if you were As we talk about two big honkin episode Cloak of Darkness versus the Tholian Web Cloak of Darkness from Star Wars the Clone Wars season one versus the Tholian Web from Star Trek the Original series season three.

1:21 I gotta tell you what a joy to have two barn burners as opposed to say a fun episode or good episode and a episode. We're referring of course to Bomb Bad Jedi, which we covered with Patrick Cottner. And that what did we even watch? I don't even remember the Star Trek episode. I don't care. I liked Bomb Bad Jedi, and I don't even remember anymore of things that happened for. The world is hollow and I have touched this guy. Oh, I guess this is fine. I don't know. We liked it for McCoy, that's what it was. We have it props for McCoy. But otherwise, especially there's something just incredibly motivated you're exciting about being like, Okay, this is like these are two bangers fire just like we are balancing plot and character and excitement and also just like really good writing. I just that's how I That's just how I feel.

2:17 Speaking speaking of really good writing. Joe Crosby, who reviewed this from the Saint Petersburg Time in her weekly column and her rather her syndicated newspaper column review that's only in web. Sorry, if a newspaper column is syndicated, does that mean it like runs across the country in different newspapers. That is correct? Yes? Oh, like a TV show. Yeah, like a TV show, like a future Star Trek show that we will come Wait. What's her name? Joe Crosby, Joan Crosby, how much cash do you think you get from that? Do you think's like loads of cash. In nineteen sixties money probably like a million dollars a column.

2:58 Shut up, I don't know. I do a fair amount of research. I don't asthena, I don't know. I don't I don't know either, So I asked you, but I just for it makes sense. There's obviously other syndicated columns. You probably made bank back in that those days because newspapers were more valued. But he goes, You're not here to talk about the finances of newspaper calumnists. We're here to talk about The Tholian Web, released November fifteen, nineteen sixty eight, credited director Herb Wallenstein and writer Judy Burns and Check Richards in one of their first screenwriting assignments ever. Ever, Yeah, they're basically kids. So Joe Crosby writes about tonight's episode Mister Spock Takes Command and tonight's Star Trek, an episode that is mostly devoted to special visual effects, which includes no quite good animation. Captain Kirk is trapped in an alien space atmosphere that can disintegrate matter, and he is presumed dead when he is unable to be being back to the Enterprise worse, the starship is being in gulfed in a web emanation from a powerful area, and any attempt to break loose will only mean putting an end to the search and rescue operations for the captain. True.

4:09 True, She's not wrong. Do you agree with that synopsis? Sort of? I mean yeah, more or less? That's right, interesting? More or less? Do you yeah? I agree with it? I don't know. I don't know. I mean it's fine. It's a lot of the effects are actually pretty rad. Yes, revolutionary effects. Fantastic stuff. People phasing in and out. Oh cool, some creepy Kirk in the mirror, yes, oh so good. Danged dang, okay, well that was great, man, See anyone near this locked in?

4:50 I just want to like you. Want to bring into some chill energy. No, I want to bring in like some awful trickster energy. Think. This is why. Look I do I do the research I'm locked in? Was like, but like what I liked about it is like it was fun and stuff. Can we talk about cinder Kurshion? I don't know, okay. So. Compared to Star Wars Clone Wars Cloak of Darkness, which was released December fifth, two thousand, and eight Season one, episode nine director is Dave Filoni. In this case, it's the second of three a three episode arc. It was written by Paul Deany. Hey, actually is so good. I didn't even know that until this moment that I was written by Paul Deani.

5:40 Wow, wow, wow. I mean he's the main writer. It's also Henry Gilroy, a series writer. It's supervising writer. What does Henry Gilroy know but. To have Adini Anna Filone might explain why this episode is out of control. What's great about this episode is and it's out of control? It is so good. Has anyone talked about how out of control this episode is? They haven't. We're the first. We're the vanguard. No one has ever talked about this episode before. We are the vanguard. We're the vanguard, the vanguard for this stuff, especially not podcasts that were solely devoted to this show. None not even think about a more civilized agent talking about the complicated uh economic politics that are talking about in bombad Jedi or no, don't worry about it? Where the look at me, look at me now?

6:35 From TV Archaeologist, I'm the best luminar and Dooley and Ahsokatano are transporting the captive Viceroy Newt Gunray to Corussant to face trial. Of course, he was captured in Bombay Jedi. The previous episode, Count Good Job, Count Dooku deploys his apprentice, the assassin Massage. Out clarify with Assage Ventriss is one of the more normal characters in the show. I would say Assage Ventures is a bald of hairless harpy and a bog witch. Yes, to make sure gun Ray is either recaptured or killed rather than have him spill separatist secret. There's episode rules. This episode rules. I'm raven, I'm raving. He's so good. I love as Sage ventest Ventriss Ventriss, Beniloquist Ventuance. I cannot describe to you how hot she is and how scary she is and how if you like kind of like poker a little bit she goes, She's so cool. Okay, that's how I feel.

7:59 How do you feel? I liked this episode a bunch, yes, sight, how do you feel a lot? I mean, I love a Sage ever since she showed up in the Gandy two D clone Wars where she was like, you know what I am, I'm a terrier. I'm gonna bite your ankles off. I'm not just going to bite your ankles. I'm going to bite your ankles off. And there is thought with Anakin on you having four in the rain and the was happening on the light. Remember when we watched the two D Clone Wars and you were like, I watched this. It's great, and yeah, I mean the ventures fight was out of control. It was one of those things. Out of control, and we would know we are the vanguard. We are the bad card. No one has talked about this before before us control Luminara out of control, not out of control, annoying, very control, actually very in control, a very interesting dynamic. Not to just immediately jump in, but kind of to talk about.

8:51 Hold one, I gotta play it. Uh sound effect, first impression of the. Nice nice, nice nice s I I realized my my chair just squeaked because I'm pulling my body in with such excitement and like I'm just like I can't I can't catch it. I can't figure it out. Listen to me. Much like famous rapper mcamer, you can't touch this, you can't touch this. I'm thinking in terms of threes. Okay, you're ready, you're ready for this, Okay, this episode had it all. There's there's like three kind of a three for dynamic of the idea of the energies. The Assage Ventrist energy, the Luminara and Duly energy, and the Ahsokatano energy, which I feel like are three. They're very different. Luminara is old Guard Jedi. Also famously, no, it was shocked. I was gonna say, I didn't Luminara tie cremous.

9:57 That was shockedy well, Luminara and. Her embarrassed offie. They do have that great temple piece in Tarsky, which is fantastic. I will not tell you why, but I have a grudge against Luminara. Sure, I mean, I believe you are spoiled as to what happens with Luminara right in the future. Yeah, right, what am I thinking of? So I'm watching this episode and I'm like, ah, interesting that they're putting this much juice on this character. I don't know if this was what they hadn't intended she is. She is an old Guard representative of the kinds of ideas of the Jedi that ultimately lead to their dumb downfall.

10:46 She is willing to learn in this episode which is good. I appreciate it, and I you know, I do think a character like in Ahsoka is so like there's this fiery kind of brashness and energy which is oneonderfully kind of foiled to hers and then this kind of actual unhinged energy that is venturous and I just find it to be very interesting and love it. And on the other side, with the Star Trek episode, I just want to call this out speaking there is no real connection here, and I like talking about threes, but I just like came out of it being like, there's three main things happening here, which is that Kirk has been phased out literally he is caught in a space where he has been like phased presumably out of existence, along with a ship that defiant the first defiant, there is a second defiant, yes nine. The other thing is happening is there's basically because of this like phasing, there's like a space sickness that is going So there's another thing that's happening. And the third thing that happened is happening is that these Tholians are a threat. So three things that are happening that presumably what's the fourth oh, the fourth.

11:54 Thing is just trying to betin and McCoy is like, you wanted to take the captaincy and spots have you not spent the last three years with me on this ship? Right, well, and that's the internal conflict versus like I'm thinking of like the the plot points that then now dictate the thing, because at first and that one, I was like, there's too much happening. I think the first should have been called spos busy Day. Yeah, anyways, that been in the morning he is, Yeah, he is having a real day, that's for sure. There's so much to it, There's so much emotional depth. But yeah, I'm thinking in terms of plot points because at first I was just like, there's too much happening in this episode, and I was like, wait, there is just enough happening in this episode and it's all actually feeding the emotional depth of this And yeah, so I think the dynamism, I think my connective factor here why I think both were There's so many reasons why. But it's like so much character work, so much interesting connection between characters, and like the plot doing just enough to actually highlight that character work, and that is what is valuable.

13:07 See, I find because it's first impressions, the Sony web and the Spock McCoy stuff pretty intolerable. Actually, wow, McCoy do McCoy is behaving so out of character, and I grant your head canon is he's grieving, but then the things that he is saying to Spot are so ugly. They are they are, which I guess I took it in the context of their entire relationship and that's I mean, it's really You're right, like, it's pretty intense. They they have had a clear respect for each other. Yeah, and this episode, because Kirk is not there, it completely comes uncorked. And what perhaps this is just because I'm a boy and identify it with Spock more because logic Spot seems to be acting pretty rationally in the face of all of this stuff. Yeah, and McCoy is completely uncorked, uh huh in this episode and it feels ugly. I wish that it was framed just a little bit more explicitly for me, because that's the kind of viewer that I am. And then it's just kind of a sleepy episode for me.

14:26 What wild Oh my god, we're. Covering stuff that we've already covered and kind of uh. We are Yeah, Galiles I guess, well, I don't know, it's been a while. It was enough for me. That's enough for me that I was like, oh, oh, I'm into this. I actually explicitly thought to myself, Wow, well, wow, I'm glad we're not covering stuff we always cover. Yeah, I mean, I just yeah, yeah, yeah, And this is your first impression. It's my first impression. This is your first impression. There's something very interesting about the notion of as opposed to Galilee A seven with the show is still kind of trying to find itself. This one, it's firmly locked in what the dynamic of the show is, the triumph it Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Every episode Kirk, Spock and McCoy Kirk Spock.

15:13 Yeah, So what happens when Kirk. Is removed, McCoy becomes unquirked. Spot should logic down, but instead he keeps but because Spock is cool, keeps doing this thing. Yeah. Yeah, I guess in terms of the comparison of the two, like you would think that if you remove any key point of the Triumvirate then they would start to sort of lose themselves and should have been like a little bit more. Yeah, because I took it so strongly as like you're right, grief. I took it as a culmination of frustration, because they respect each other, but they but like they remain frustrated with each other, like they have a real like sort of little conflict, the type of relationship that you can imagine is only tempered by Kirk being there and I so I do so it actually like while it was cool, I was like, I am here for this type of I mean, because it's the huge, huge human reaction, right of just like overwhelm versus yeah, cool, calm, collected, and what does that mean ultimately? So I guess yeah, yeah, in practice perhaps a little bit clunkier than it should have been. In concept, I found it to be extremely engaging, so because I found every single like I just like I was just like, I felt that there was enough happening all around that it never got stale.

16:44 Into their like, I mean, this is an iconic episode. It is, Yes, I feel greattholient web is an iconic image. And whenever you're watching the original version, yeah I was, I'm sure the remastered version, but there's just something very powerful about watching that web slowly form. Yes, whenever the Tholian chips just kind of dock back to back and then suddenly Aline forms and they're like what, they can't do anything because the enterprise is broken. Yeah, it's iconic. The ship gets surrounded with a web and it's a really novel solution that they come up with having to use.

17:28 Suddenly all the plots converge all at once. Yamn. That's good screenwriting, which is amazing considering that these kids were the foils that wrote this, were fresh out of film school and we're just like, I want to work on Star Trek because the Star Trek is cool and so like. Literally, the first script that writer Judy Burns started working on was a spec Star Trek script. She hadn't written a script before partnered up with chat Chests Oh Chat, which I believe that this is his one and only screenwriting credit, who was just like, yeah, we'll try this out.

18:09 Cool, great job. Has a Star Trek episode which is a great party story. Oh yeah, I read an iconic episode of Star Trek. You you were going to Charlotte. Yeah, I'm gonna count yeah. Ah. Calling this out for a second, I don't think there's actually a pattern here, and I think it's productive to say this, but hey, like the last time there was an episode significantly written by someone who was not a white dude, I also was like, wow, this feels interesting and like we're really digging into character and emotion. And it was the Medusa episode Medusa episode Hot Up. I feel like it was really like in tune with what those emotional reactions and relationships might be when faced with like an external conflict again dangerous dangerous interest to be like, there's because of a woman, because like, man, I'm still like white woman, still like within the structures, but maybe like different types of voices. What can happen? You know, what can happen when you have like excited people with different perspectives.

19:16 Yeah, imagine exactly exactly that. On the other side, we have Paul Deany and Tavaloni writing the best episode of Ye. You can really feel them digging into exciting things, specifically with not Command Agree, our guias. Our guys, who is voiced by James Marsters by the way, our buddy Spike. Indeed, Yes, yes, a joy Joy for all. Wonderful. Had no idea where his character was going to go, because it felt like his character was going to shift at some point, I was like, Oh, it's not gonna happen, and then he did. I was like, I knew it, which made me feel really smart.

20:06 I couldn't. I was like, I'm pretty sure this guy's bad, but I couldn't. I was like, but it's because I've seen this before, because what's happening for me not bad. He's just gonna portray because you know, does like he wants fucking money, don't we all? Wow? Whoa, Yeah, he's He's a really interesting. It's really interesting by the way, to have you know, speaking of these different like dynamic forces, going yeah, going back to this episode, to have you're sort of antagonists, you're clear antagonists of venturists and trying to get new gun ray and also have soldiers and what it means it's like to have the Jedi and then to have and like to have our clone soldiers, and then to have these Senate Soldiers, the Senate Guard, and I'm just like, I'm like, you don't get to they're not engaged in the same way that clones are. Who you know, clones are just by nature they are so committed to the cause. So what does it mean when you get this kind of wild card and also that kind of like consistent value piece is an interesting thing to think about too, But.

21:16 Yeah, consistent value piece. I just feel like they not all of them not you know, there's there's so much of like within the clones, there's so they're people. So there's when I have variation of like who they are and what they believe in. But for the most part, they're all like, they're all like company men and they're you know, and and that's you know, if we're going to be saying, because they are all individuals, it's not like that's bred into them. It's weird shit, right, but they are born to be to believe in this cause and then trained from childhood to believe in this cause. Yeah, what does that mean? You know? Oh, actually I'm.

21:56 Now thinking about this within the context of the shape of What's Wars is and the preel. The prequel nature of this, yes, works in its favor. You can't watch Star Wars chronologically in terms of how it happens in the universe because you're like the watch watch me, this is a mess that none of this makes sense. But if you watch this within the context of you got your original trilogy, ye, and then you've got your prequel trilogy, which is trying to say something and fails pretty much. Okay, well, also I ignored e Walks and Droids, so sorry. Then you watch you Woks and Droids and you're like, what a delightful rot But then you get to the prequels, and the prequels try to introduce shades of gray, but I feel like the execution is there on the page.

22:46 It's not there in the execution of films. And then you've got the Clone Wars, which is now for general audiences that are watching those are now introducing that Empires this is how Empires fall and Empires rise. Yes, and you've got our guys. Yes, who is We've had characters who are You've got our guy, our guy, We've got assage baddie, We've got our Clone guys, Goodies, goodies, our gui. Is Is it goodie that turns into a bad? Have we had that yet? In Clone Wars. We've had We've had people that we trusted betray us, like in Bomb Bad Jedi. That just happened, But that's not a goodie becoming a.

23:35 Baddie in regards to our Rodean yeah head and even that one was because the. Republic was desperation. Yeah, yeah, you let. Us down, which begged clergic questions, but the episode. Doesn't get to go into them. You want to listen to the amazing economic double down. Listened to a more civilized age about the new gun ray art Uh, truly truly marvelous. Where we were are making jokes. We're like, oh, I can't know. Fuck. Meanwhile, they're talking about how the Republic has been specifically designed to make sure that there is an error dependence on every single planet. No planet can create self sustaining ecosystems, which creates its own kind of indentured servitude, even though it keeps the illusion of everything is good.

24:31 That's oh you know, okay, wait so sorry, can we back up a second. Yeah, that is, this isn't quite the same thing that has a real England forcing Ireland to to export its crops and its their growth than the only thing they could really keep. So you know, like the potato famine, it happened because they had to ship all of their goods into England. Really like so when there was a potato fam and that's why they started to starve. And it had to do with colonialism that's what did it. And it has that sort of vibe of like the Republic is fundamentally kind of colonialist power.

25:12 Yeah. But because of Star Wars, for young adults, they're like, don't worry about it. Here's dret truck. Because that's the function, right, The function is to participate with the cool Star Wars toys because it's fun. But if you're tricking me into thinking about global politics, universal galaxy politics and trade negotiations, I mean cool. And now you have a senate commando our guy is yeah, And now we have a character who is specifically duplicitous, who is coded as good then turns bad and it's just.

25:53 Complicitly explicitly because he's like I need the money. Basically, he's a senate man Doo guarding New Gun Ray. Yeah, the possibly the most important person in the Clone War, maybe second only to Count Dooku. Okay, you have a guard for New Gun Ray yep. But and he turns he's a double agent. Yeah. The empire the Republic is fallen. Yeah, because if you do not have people that are willing to adhere to the so called idealism of the Republic, what do you got?

26:37 Actually, Oh, gosh, sorry. This is also making me sort of think about the like neoliberalism. Like what we're talking about this colonial power and the structure of the of the galaxy. It is fundamentally neoliberalist. And it's back to that whole like Jesse Gender Jesse Earl's analysis of this of this neoliberalism that fades or that gives rise to fascist them And I'm thinking about like times where we've had in history like military cups and this has this has the feeling. I mean, this is one actor, he's working independently for his own monetary game, but it's like a kind of a neoliberalist times when there have been military coups have also been actually in other countries where our neoliberalism has affected those countries and led to military cups to be clear, like a Chile in nineteen seventy three, in which we we destabilize the government.

27:36 And it's fine in America's the best country on the planet. But I am thinking about in this context of neoliberalism as leads to fascism and like this kind of breakdown and starting to see that also like people in positions of like what would be military authoritarian right of how they could like kind of be very inclined toward this fascistic system. Can see them like they've been inclined the whole time and they've just been waiting for the moment. Yeah, right, Like they've been like, well, we're like halfway there. I guess we have some social services or whatever, and now they're just like, oh, is it time? Yeah? You know, so interesting if that made sense, kind of just like thinking through the concept.

28:20 Of it, I think so, yes, because he. Is fundamentally you know, this is it's a militaristic structure. It's authoritarian imagine in structure or it can like I'm assuming. That these senate commandos are the elite of the elite. They are not clones. They are human beings. Yeah, there is not a military at least the way that we understand it in Star Wars so far without consuming EU. The way that we understand the military arm of Star Wars so far, it's in the name wars. People have gun and they fight and sometimes they have spains warts. It's in their name. It's in the name.

29:01 These are wars. But a military force did not exist prior to the exists of the Clone Army, which was built in secret, but no one asked questions because they needed it, because there was a crisis, because Palpatine's behind it all. But Palpatine was creating a crisis that would necessitate an army so he could be able to be in a place to create a military coup and seize power and killed the Jedi. But the Jedi are also morally gray because they're functioning as space costs, which I'm not entirely sure that we are getting that notion, but having just watched The Acolyte and that deals in such wonderful shades of gray, and so it's extremely complicated. But within the text of the prequels, and the Jedi are kind of well again on the page, the Jedi are a broken institution that are kind of turning a blind eye because they're just in power. Why even bother as stealing this again from the more civilized age. They can't do their basic function, which is predict what the heck is going to happen.

30:03 Their powers of precognition have diminished, and so they can't serve their functions. But they don't tell the Senate, which, uh, you know, how would that have turned out? Because Palpatine's behind it all. But anyways, interesting TLD. Yes, the Klon Army manufacturing, but there's also these Senate commandos, Senate commandos, Senate commandos. Well, we can assume just just I'm I am making a textual inference, which is that the Jedi aren't the only ones representing a sort of peacekeeping force, like they are like these higher up peacekeepers, like they're diplomats in theory, but they're also they are clearly enforcing laws. But like you still need like on the grounds, like or you still need a protection for the Senate. You'd still need these highly trained guards, you know. So I'm sure there are other types of police forces, and I think we have within the context of Star Wars we've probably seen.

31:01 Let me play on this head canon because I think there's textual evidence of this. Whenever you need to make a show of diplomatic force, a show specifically, you want to broadcast send it is behind this action. It's not a Jedi. We want to broadcast that the Senator is power. Well, so can I not to stop your thought? But how dare you? It's just a star. Fun time. It's just a fun time for me. I saw this group as they're guards. They're not a police force guards. It's like there's like the like the Emperor's guards, like they're guards, They're not a They're not like if we were to extract it kind of like extrapolate it out, like it kind of seems horrific that you actually.

31:45 If they are just guards, way into the weeds here. But I'm doubling. And also there's a specific function for this. If they're just guards, why do they have the label of Senate commandos? You're right, commando does You're right? Forgot what the commando piece. I was just thinking of them as a guard. But there's also nothing necessarily textually that is demonstrating this. But also it's a demonstration that we the Senate, the Senate of the Republic, had this on lock. We don't need the Jedi on this. We are strong enough that we can handle this a show for.

32:26 It is pretty wild that they send them even when they've got Jedi. Did you watch did you watch this week's felony. Z I didn't. That's why before we talked, I was like, oh no, I didn't do. My rese well, the TLGN are about that, And I also needed to go outside of the Foloni Zoni for other reasons. But for the Foloni Zoni this week, Folony specifically one of the Senate Commandos, because he thought that it was too soon for clones to turn. Oh, he's right, and so he created the Senate Commandos. Okay, start playing with than these notions. It is too zoom at this point. I agree.

33:06 And that also kind of plays on what I was talking about earlier, which is like, that's not to say if there aren't going to be clones who their own accord would turn or to have different feelings, and there are there are some that defect, and there's stuff like that. But so yeah, from a but from a narrative perspective this early in the show, I agree. I think that's a good move. Yes, what else did I write down? New Gun Raised voice is crazy? You were like you wrote down Aspen is probably the coolest personal I know to write that, I see it. I don't have screenshare on here, do I. That's weird. We also have an interesting I wish we also have an interesting pairing with Ahsoka and Lubinara and Duley, which I love the fact that Clone Wars is just like, you know, who's together this week? These two characters. Why don't exactly know. They're just together and yeah it doesn't matter, Yeah, I don't.

34:04 It goes a long way. I think to have Ahsoka with other characters and other types of Jedi who are not just Obi Wan and and Anakin, because she is you're now seeing like her. Her personality obviously different from Annakins, but they share that brashness and that sort of kind of impetuousness and are just kind of the way that they just burst into things at this point. And I think that it is that Tude goes part and parcel with kind of what is the complicated necessity for this environment because we've got Luminara, and we've got Ahsoka, who is the brash new blood, and then you Luminara and Dooley, who is the ostensibly the entrenched system that is not working.

34:55 In it gues yes, exactly, We've also she is the entrench system that is also had years of being on top and having you know, being like, uh, we are the ones. And then the Jedi, the Padawan, who's all she's ever known is war. Yeah, good good a good foil. They are good foils for one another, yeah, goodness gracious. And then there's Ventres aside Friendress, I love a witch bitch.

35:36 You know, she's from dathamir right, sorry spoiler, she's from dathmre right. Wonderful. She's a literal witch bitch. I like the witches and act like better than the dath of mere witches. I mean there, and it is a competition. Yeah, there are different types of witches for sure. Actually, I don't want to like reveal this because I'm embarrass I don't I Actually I haven't watched the last two episodes of The Actolyte because I didn't want it to end. And I do that sometimes where I just like kind of want to let it go for a little bit, and then when I do watch someone and I feel really sad because it's over. I just want you to know because I really liked it and I got kind of overwhelmed emotionally by it.

36:23 Asage. Massage needs to prove her. Worth right because she's failed a couple of times. She's she she like, uh, well, no, I get into some other stuff because the next episode so but it's like they do keep they haven't done super great. Yeah, These Doku buddies, these Douku children, children of Douku, these Dukelings, these dukalings. Yeah, so yeah, she has to prove herself and she succeeds. She facking does it so she gets it. Wi I was thinking she gets them out, like she's the one that I mean, well, Argyle whatever, our guy, you have something, Kenny, there's just two of us here.

37:08 You don't have to raise your hand as part. Of the system. Kenny Madison over here and raising a hand and within Zancaster. I'm just thinking about this. Yeah, we've been having a very insightful discussion. Then do you want to talk about farts? Do you think that George Lucas whenever inventing the new character, when an episode two was like should he be a count or should he be a duke count? Or duke count, Duke ou Count. Do. You think that it was like that look at me? Yes, okay, great, I yes, you're absolutely.

37:53 Right, Like and then Twarp's on the internet afterwards, we're just like Count Doucu has this noble backstory? Is its actually this fallen Jedi and it's actually so tragic and it's just so tragic and what I meanwhile, George looks like count the count uh count account. I forgot that account was something you could be if you weren't Dracula. I thought it was just a Dracula thing. You could be a count, I could. How let's look it up. Give me how to how to be a count?

38:37 How do we do it? Count is a historical title of nobility in certain European countries. That's great, and that's what is account? How do you become account? Royal titles dot? Thank you? Yeah, thank you for looking. So it's not surprising that the ways to become account have altered over the many centuries since the title press came into you. And like many of the boor this is too much seo stuff. Okay, here you could inherent account title, thank your headlines. Okay, you could become account by marriage probably doesn't want to participate in that, or partner you could purchase account title.

39:18 Stop it. This rarity and exclusivity would explain why noble titles are still regards with such a steem and fascination. So it's not surprising that on rare occasions, families with the legitimate claim to a noble title mate you just to sell the privilege. Obviously just considerable something. So what you do? It sounds like you got to go find someone who's like, I need some scratch. Anybody want to be account I'm selling account hood. Do you think that's how Dooku got his count hood? Yeah? Yeah, like of those three, I think he married. You think he married into it? Yeah? I think that bitch bought it. Yeah.

39:58 Yeah, Dan, he was just like it was like, my name is Dooku, and that's stupid. Like he's because like, can you buy like a duke hood? And he probably was like, can't be duke Dookie, can't be Duke dou Gotta be count Dooku, can't be Prince Douku, can't buy the prince hood. Gotta go buy that. I think he bought it, assuming that. I mean if if if in the Star Wars Galaxy of the same thing as European titles, I imagine we have the same structure. I think it's exactly the same. Yeah cool, okay, yeah, wow, what a what a podcast?

40:42 What's our star trek again? Yeah, let's talk about star Treks. So the director was fired in between what they had this episode had two different directors because notoriously, as we've established, NBC is keeping the show around because they know that they had to have a third season because they got more fan mail than they've gotten on anything ever in the history. So it would just be bad form to be like, no, we're not going to do a Star Trek. Yeah, but then they are just like, uh, you have to be in this time plot. Not only that, you have to come in at this budget, not only this, you have to film this amount of time, which might be fine for to say, ask me, what's the sickcom idea that you have?

41:25 Is it common idea? Yeah? On a too long It's a show about stupid lawyers. That's what the show is. That's Aspens, that's as show. Aspen comes in and she's like, stupid lawyers. Stupid lawyers can come in, you can shoot stupid lawyers in six days, and stupid lawyers can come in at one hundred thousand dollars. But a Star Trek, Star Trek, a Star Trek has never been done before. So even in three, they're still coming in and being like, we have to figure this stuff out. Case in point, the Tholeian Web, which was created by a dude who came in on Day of the Dove. Now about that, if I if I am remembering the story correctly and I remember the story. I mean referencing the use of the boy just U season three by Mark Susan Osborne.

42:15 Thank you, thank you. Mike Minor is the guy who made the Thlian Web happen or what happened. I'll just read this specifically, thank you you're doing so good from Mike Minor, who was freshly hired. Because he was like brand new and so it had to do with Union's he brought art in onspec for free. The Union regulations prevented the production company from commissioning work from an outside contractor, but they could by existing material, which is why this guy has jump. Anyways, in regards to making the Solian Web, now was the one I worked the longest on and involved three to four months out at Frank Vanderveer's optical company, the go to company that made all the ship shots and stuff.

43:06 I store avoided the seventeen cuts of effects that the script called for, shot the raw footage, and executed all of the animation plates in conjunction like a normal episode of TV. Now would probably have upwards of one hundred, if not maybe a thousand like special effects shots, seventeen cuts within the Tholian webyear so once they shot the model of the Tholian ship against black velvet, I projected the shots a frame at a time onto a white card with a rotoscope, set up a technique in which animators trace over footage frame by frame and plotted pencil marks where the ship moved by tracing and advancing each frame.

43:52 Then I created the cell like cartoon animation using black lines for the grid. Each shot in the episode showed a partially completing grid with one line being animated across the field, as if by the Tholi and Chip. I shot those by pulling a white card frame by a frame, revealing the black line underneath a black and white negative of all of this resulted in a black background with white of clear lines on the film, which was used to create an animation burn in. Holy shit, incredible. Meanwhile, we're watching it and being like, that's cool. This dude worked three to four months, frame by frame. Yeah, doing something that had never been done like this before.

44:37 Not as wild. Oh, I actually watched the one on Paramount, So I watched the new version, and now what I need to do is go watch the original because that's that is extraordinary. Great job, buddy. Uh so you're having to do that which has essentially never been done. Okay, having to find a solution. Oh sorry, I was talking over you, wasn't I. No, it's just making a joke. No, what what's your joke? He said? He said to you, and I said me, yes, said me, I'm me And then I realized, you know, you weren't talking to me. What m hm. So basically Sam Raimie making evil dead? Yeah, I mean, I mean the amount of time, of course, Like it's a different kind of situation where it's like, oh god, my god, that's so much time that he committed to this. But it's sort of like the kind of like when you don't have all the resources available to what do you produce extraordinary?

45:46 That is? And you they created, Mike Minor created something completely iconic. What an iconic look? Mike So. Ralph Sinenski, a go to star Trek director, was the director of this. And I don't know if I properly established they were doing special effects that had never been done before. Could you say it again? They were doing special effects that they had never done before. What and paramount at this time is like you have to finish an episode in six days no matter what. Great even if you are creating a star Trek with special effects that have never been done before, and the folks upstairs know that Fred Freiberger knows this, Gene knows this, and then not only that NBC knows this, but they're just like, no, six days, you have to bring this in six days. Ral Sinenski, a go to guy, is having to deal with Captain Kirk who is fading in and out. You are having to deal with McCoy who is fading in between the ship. You're having to deal with the elaborate special effects. And then not only that, the freaking stupid space suits.

47:06 I really liked the spacesuits, like if we ever had spacesuits, No, we have never had space suits before. And not only that these because Gene Roddenberry is Gene Roddenberry. Each actor there are four space suits. I believe it all has their name on them. Each actor had to be sewn into the spacesuits because rodden Berry did not believe that in the future they would have zippers, So anytime any of the actors needed to go to the bathroom, they had to get unsown out. No, shut the fuck up all of this. Uh huh, creates a time problem because the space suits are awful, they aren't working, the special effects are taking a long time.

47:55 Uh huh. And at some point they're like, Ralph Senenski, you've gone over budget. I don't care if you're one of our go to directors, You're fired. Oh my god. This creates a new atmosphere where now even established company men aren't safe. And Herb Wallenstein comes in, finishes the episode. Herb and I believe directs a couple more episodes or so yeah, so it's not good the the environment on season three start talking the original series it's not doing too.

48:41 Well, right, and it hasn't been doing hasn't been doing super well. And then for a while you couple that with the fact that you watch this episode and you're like, this rules. I got as you were saying that, I was just like, thank goodness, I loved this and vibe with it so hard because I'm like all that all that work, I mean, and that's true for everything. Now. We talk about it sometimes where sometimes I'm like, I'm like I might not like something, but you know, I still got a respect in art, you know, But this time around, I'm like, oh, I'm glad. I didn't know any of that. I was just like, this is great. So yeah, I'm not terribly fond of this episode, but a lot of people are, like I said, these are this is one of the most famous episodes of season three of the original series. Then, not only that this episode came in twenty four hundred and thirty eight dollars under the mandated budget.

49:35 Well there you go, get out of here. Wow, that's extraordinary. I believe there were just some suits who were like, time for me to prove my power. I mean, it's like any kind of organization. Yeah, doesn't sound unfamiliar for people who have no actual like understanding of boots on the ground. Just such a militaristic thing to say, like the actual experience of the thing. I mean being like, no, I don't think so. James Cameron famously uh, maybe not necessarily, but James Cameron says that film mak he used war. Okay, perhaps it is appropriate.

50:16 Bound James Cameron is notoriously one of the most chill directors ever. It's just so chill. What a chill director. It's not like anyone on his sets has ever almost drowned. Uh, not once, Not one actor has almost drowned. Tattoo has got to stop filming and water. He's got to stop it. He's got to stop being obsessed with water. Every other movie. He's obsessed with water every other movie. James Cameron The Way of Water. Well, not every other movie. You gotment, we got water Terminator, not water, not water, Aliens slimy but not water water esque but out water. You know what is water? The abyss Oh.

51:06 Oh, it's yeah, it's We're still back in time. I love you. I love that. Maybe not every other movie, but like every two movies, because we then after that got Terminator, Two True Lies. Then Western is from memory? You just from memory? Yeah, stop it. Well, he hasn't made that many films, and each one of it's not hard whenever, like every single movie that you do is kind of a home run in terms of watchability. And after that Titanic heard of it a movie is so good they put it out on two VHS's then a movie that caused me eighteen weeks of depression because I couldn't go live in the world of Pandora Avatar sort of wet, sort of wet, but you know what is wet movie? So wet water is at the title he.

52:00 Baby, if a way of water, bbet to see it? Apparently I don't like wet things. I agree enough enough, I agree U. When do you think about that? What do you think that th Oni and Web is saying about? Uh, id ego and super ego. Once again, threes if if we're viewing it through that lens, actually things start to feel a little less out of nowhere, like if like I mean, Kirk is synthesis for Spocking the cooys.

52:42 Uh, he has flaws for lack of another. Word, he is super ego. H for sure, Yeah, he is synthesis, but he is also like a binding factor or is kind of like an overseer of and kind of kind of gets to because there is that there is explicitly within this episode there he's got his like watch this tape in the case of my death and it's literally you have to trust each other like you are going like you uh Spock, I guess his ego and yeah, and then yeah, McCoy is the id if. By definition, it is sort of like the kind of not I mean, unhinged is the first word that comes to mind, but sort of like the like the not hedonistic, but like the kind of maybe, yeah, maybe we should look it up just to make sure I get it right.

53:38 But I am instinctive impulses, instinctive impulses, so yeah, that's kind of where I'm coming at with that. And then if the ego itself is it's like, sorry, yeah, what were you gonna say? I Am not just pulling it ego and super ego out of my butt. This is a thing that has been ascribed to Kirk, Spock and McCoy many times, and by many times, at least one time by producer Harv Bennett on Star Trek two The Wrath of Khan, a dude who was able to synthesize seventy nine episodes, boiled it down into a science fiction masterpiece, and he identified what the heck show was about.

54:23 Kirk, Sorry, can I can? I also perfect? I was wrong? Sorry, it's The ego is consciously enacted and balances the two different modes of the unconscious in order to function. The super ego acts as the normative check on behavior. The ID is the libidinal energy impurely hedonistic. So in that way, the super ego in this case is Spock and the ID is still McCoy. And then the ego I just kind of confused those that would be the sort of, yeah, the balancing factor of the two, that's all Freid. Not to give credence to any of Freud's a lot, it's also just pulling on this trend just to talk a little bit about what the heck this episode from two ostensibly film school kids are comminent writing a Star Trek episode, kind of identifying exactly what the show is about, and then hitting on something that is even though Galileo seven has done it, has never done this like this by taking Kurt completely off the board.

55:23 Yeah, off the board? Yeah, And so what does that say in terms of mainstructure? How can the society function in those regards? Yeah? I guess. The other one that we've used a lot on this podcast specifically is the ethos pathos logos. Yes, and so that same triumvirate of it, where the Spock acting as the logos and McCoy acting as the pathos, they don't have the other side of their triangle and sort of fall apart without that sort of normalizing or kind of central force or that kind of like propelling force forward or in the Freud Ferdian since the one that normalizes the cross them. I mean, within the structured Star Trek itself. I'm want those characters. I feel like, yeah, this one just and maybe that's why I don't feel so affected by I don't feel so bothered by McCoy being so much like I find it like, I'm like, I think that this is an exercise in what it looks like at the extremes.

56:26 Perhaps there is something to be said while the two elements are coincidental, without your ethos, whenever you have pathos and you have locos, but without your ethos, without your central belief system, or rather the ability to synthesize both of these raw elements. M madness. Yeah, that way lies madness, an unchecked madness, and it literally stalls action, and instead it is just raw. It is just raw intelligence, raw emotion. That is, without any of those to put into action, you are put into stasis. How novel that it would be something known as enterprise that would be put in stasis with an absence of ethos.

57:13 Cute. Yeah, that's pretty clever. That's pretty clever, Kenny. This is cute. Yeah. Yeah, I think, of course, I like the idea of film school kids being. Like you know what. Originally it was supposed to be Spock that was lost. And then I believe folks that are reading the script for but Fred Freiberger and Arthur Singer, Arthur Singer being Fred Freiberger's rewriter, they were just like, nah, nah, should be Kirk and the films is Judy and Chat. Really yeah, absolutely it should be love that absolutely right without without Spock, or you can take Spock off the board.

57:58 That's that's fine. Sad, yes, because Spot's got twenty years and every time I see them makes me go crazy out of control. Oh, the Devil's got you. But without Kirk, everyone Spot doesn't want command. McCoy has no dampening agent. No, he's a mess. He's yeah too big, Brief is too much. And then you've also got the aggressive yeah Tholions popping in yeah. Well, and not only the aggressive Thlions, but you also have the crew members one by one leaning into aggression, which if we're really gonna dig into it, like, yes, this is a threat and we have to find the answer to the threat. And that's happening kind of all simultaneously.

58:46 But if we're really going for it could also be like it this is another manifestation of this like loss, this like this literal loss and being lost without that sort of normalizing force. So you're like going towards the extremes or whatever that might look like. This discussion. Perhaps it is just because I'm very proud of my ideas, but I find it so insightful as how to view it through this lens that I really want to watch the Tolian Web again. Oh my gosh, do you like it now? I think it might be the greatest of a star trek Well, I would understand no notes. Yeah, can I I don't want to get away from this, but I dare you. I wanted to share another piece that I've like texted you because I do think this is really valuable because this is also one of the episodes where a Hura gets to do more and I yes, great, Yes, she gets to do more, She gets to have she gets to be like the focus of having reactions to things.

59:58 She gets to be that she is to see this like Kirk kind of phasing in and out after they think he's dead. It's like always like I can see him like he's phasing in. She gets to be traded like she's. Crazy, wonderful, you'll love to see it. But and so she gets a lot to do. But and I kind of was sitting there, really I was thinking about it because you know, I was just like, dang, I really hate that we're kind of is like sort of always like gentle flower, like we're all we're treating her like she could break all the time. And then I had a secondary thought, which was, and this is a this is a kind of current commentary. I cannot speak to a nineteen sixty eight commentary or but I you know, I think if we look at like black exploitation films and stuff, we could probably start to pick up on it. And I think, actually, actually I'm saying this.

1:00:49 I think the history of the way that we'll view black women is they are often either like hyper sexualized or they are kind of masculinized, and they're treated as like beasts. And you can actually, frankly, you can even see it, like I feel like in the Olympic commentary right now, it's like when white gymnasts do things, it's it's like beautiful and graceful, and if like black women do things, they're a beast and they're powerful and they're strong, right because black women like you could see it a lot of like the way Michelle Obama was treated by absolute racists like dipshits and stuff. And so black women are well, even well intentioned liberals being like, look at Michelle's arms, right, and which is a compliment.

1:01:29 I mean it's but it's like. That's we don't that's the. Black Black Black women are not accorded softness. They are not extended softness. They don't get to be delicate and beautiful by the kind of I mean they are, obviously, but in terms of like the way that society is deciding what that role looks like, and so kind of with that framework in mind, I was just like, man, Hora is consistently taken care of. She is beautiful, she is soft, she has cared for, and like that is actually, in and of itself kind of breaking of that expectation that she even gets to be this way and still seen as a very capable member of the crew as well.

1:02:15 Like she gets to be soft and also be very capable. So I think that's a really big deal. As I was thinking about it, I was just like, and you know, I'm going it's just very it's very interesting. Yep, lots of thought I had. I have nothing to add except that that is a fabulous thought. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I mean we love Michelle and we love a hurra. We do love Michelle? Yes, yeah, what else do we love? Can? I A long time ago? I started dating this week, I quoted a boat. I dated a game, but none of them could work mine drive into hyper Space. The best of both worlds kept me in the second place.

1:03:10 Captain slog on a hollow kron. I wanted a song. I penned a song. Seventeen more minutes. Spies in Super High dev aboard the USS Enterprise dt F. Don't you take my walk lighter and clip it? Don't you take my wretchird buddy and nip it? If you spill the tea, I'm gonna sip it, my starship it. Wait? Can I wait? Sorry? Sorry? While I was playing, you just you just kept Now you don't.

1:03:50 Have to explain it if you if you want to know what happened, you gotta go to the YouTube channel. Okay, but I just have to I. Understand what you want to do in order to invite out other people. But no, I'm gonna put my foot down. You want to see what. Yeah, you can't, but it's only one thing. Thank you for counting Romancing the Stone as a rom com. That's great. Asking what are we doing today, Ah. We're choosing our favorite We're star shipping. We're choosing our favorite ships. Apply to this guy and our favorite a romeiom Bic ships, Rouman jeeps. Absolutely, we are. We are. I have some there from the same episode though they're both from Star Wars, and maybe I should be more variable.

1:04:37 Nope, but asphen you know what I'm going to say, Hm, go go with your. Heart, with your gut that heart, follow that heart. Can I go first? Yeah? Absolutely can't. I don't want you to. I don't want you to take us away from me because I have to serve of course, with the ship. Right, here's what I choose from Star Wars Clone Wars. I haven't looked up what they're called, but from Star Wars Clone Wars, there are these like oh there is a name. What they do is they drop these these like like bomber type like ships into the ship and then on like it's like they go in like like a. Like yah bos like a point. Yeah.

1:05:19 Once they're inside, they open up so that the battle droids and ventrists can come out of them. Yeah, bos it was so. Gold. At least within the production of Star Wars the Clone Wars, they are known as juicers juicers. That makes so much. Sense because at this point in time they did not have budget allocated for many new models, and so we have seen this model before in the Plokoon episode where those ships, those same ships de juicing. Yeah, oh it was.

1:06:01 I don't think we've ever seen. It do that though, or we've never seen it do that. It's just the model of that. I know, it might be a different ship, right, okay, and. Then they've just copied over the model of it to reuse because it costs a lot to have to create new ships. All of this stuff costs money, all of it. Every single cool design we talk about costs money. Oh you know what. Another thing I realized, sorry, real quick while we're talking about ships, the Republic Cruiser that they're you know, there's just not a typical Republic cruiser. For some reason, it never like occurred to me that it has. You know, it's like the walkway and then the drop downs on the sides where that's where everybody's like doing their like thing and like flying the ship, that's the bridge area and that looks that is the same model as an imperial cruiser, and it just reminded me of I don't remember which episode it was, hopefully it's not an episode that doesn't come out yet, but it's like someone talking about this fact that it's like reminder that the Republic is what becomes the empire. Yeah, and so I was just like, oh, that's right. Of course it would have the same internal like like structure as a Republic cruiser because it will become like an imperial like star cruiser. Anyway, Sorry, that was just a thought I had, But I like the juicers great.

1:07:17 Then just lets me pick exactly a ship that I wanted, which was that's only a. Chip, which is you're right, that's a pretty coal ship because they can make webs, it's all. And then not only that, the ship is like a diamond shape, not even it's every single point comes to three points on the ship. It's that beautiful sci fi designs that I love, which is clean, simple and uh, like a kid in school could draw it. I love those kinds of designs. I adore them. It's so cool. And also, you know, like you said, the web comes out of its butt. It does. Yeah, I will tell you. When I saw those two ships touch butts and then as they separated, a web was made, I was like, I'm all in.

1:08:13 I'm all in. The ship's butt. Touched, and you want to see you want to see more butts touching In me. I always wanted to see butts touching. I feel like it's just an unexplored space. You know, real butts, ship butts, ship butts, dog butts, but I don't know but butts everywhere. Yeah, great choice, beautiful speaking. Of butts everywhere, Aspen, what the heck is your relationship for the week? I need you to understand something. Sure, when a sage ventrist is in an episode, I'm gonna ship her with anyone at all. Sure, So in this one, I'm being a shipper with Luminara. I just think that she has terrifying chemistry with everyone. She's hot and everyone becomes hotter because of her. Her light, her hot bog witch light shines, everybody is cast in its eerie green glow. Perfect Illuminara.

1:09:18 You can see that relationship if it were to ever be as always, we have an we have an enemy still lover situation. We've got the sort of you know, the the very logos esque that like the yeah, the superrego of the this is very practical to kind of move through this thing. And then we've got the absolute chaos of Venturess. And I think there's that whole beautiful fight scene with them that's just like dangerous and scary. So Ventures Illuminara, you do love to say it, I do. I need you to understand that in every episode of Venturess, I'm going to ship her with someone else. I think I'm going to pick our guys in. Green and is that the clone?

1:10:01 Yes, Green is. We're ostensibly on Luminara's Imperial cruiser, sorry, Republic cruiser, and Green is the commander of the platoon that is on there. It's got fun hair and our guyas is there talk with newt gun Ray and being like, gree you suck. I rule. What's great about me is that I rule. He's like, you know what else rules and orders? Yes, And so they've got a real contentious relationship, but you know, you know, and at the end of the day, our guias wants to be controlled.

1:10:51 Our guys just wants a sugar daddy and to be controlled. He's too tired of having to make this duplicitous moves and looking at for himself. What he wants is someone that not only isn't afraid to follow orders, maybe give some orders, you know what I'm saying. Who better to give orders than the commander of a clone platoon Republic cruiser. I love that, And so you know that Greece is probably going to put him in the same shackles that they put new gun in. Stop and suddenly those cloning tubs on Camino Or aren't looking so sparse and utilitarians so much as possibly a romantic get away.

1:11:33 Okay, he sold me, He sold me too bad. He stabbed through the chest with the lightsaber again, you know. Don't worry about that's a technicality. As we've seen on Ahsoka, it's easy to get over a lightsaber. Yeah, through the chests, through the chest. Okay, cool, Okay, great choice, great choice. It is a great choice. But you know, knock it off with all this diplomatic talk about great choice. Is a great choice. No, no, no, there's only one choice. Don't yell at me. I'm asthma. I don't stop it. I'm so sorry, Stop. Stop as we go back to the central conceit of the podcast, which is better Star Trek versus Star Wars as we talk the Thlian Web versus Cloak of Darkness again Tolian Web from Star Trek the original series season three versus Cloak of Darkness Star Wars the Clone Wars season one. And because ASA went first on I starship it, then I will go for us with my ranking starting with Cloak of Darkness. I am going to give this one a robust seven.

1:12:38 Yeah, what, God, what? It's great? It's more than that. That's great. I had a great time. What do you want from me? I don't know. It's good. And then also we just had a lot of great conversation that spread from it. So a lot of dynamite ideas that come from this episode, and I'm excited to see them exploring. I'm gonna give it an eight mm. Interesting. Now do you know that that number is higher than the number that I gave it? Say more? Wow? What is interesting is that because you showed up and I asked him what is your ranking for it? Now? I had said a number that is previously lower than what you have in your mind. But instead of saying a number that was equal or lower than mine. You decided a whole firm and set a number that was higher than mine.

1:13:27 Yeah, thank you for that. You're right, it was higher than yours. And I meant it, and you just you just look at me and meant. Uh, this is. This is your highest ranking of any Clone Wars episode next to Rookies so far. Oh. I did love Rookies so much. I love this episode. It's great. I enjoyed it. God, it's good. Okay, yeah, solid eight, solid eight. I understand and respect your seven is. But we are fighting. We are fighting for pretense of having a structure to the podcast. And speaking of pretensive structure, this so only and web, I am going to keep this one a five point five what. I just find it a very sleepy episode. I'm so sorry, my.

1:14:14 God, Oh my god, I can't believe I'm gonna do this. I can't believe. I can't believe I have to defend your the show that you champion. I'm so sorry, Canny, I can't believe this. I'm so sorry. When I give it a seven point seven, interesting, now that number is also higher than the one that I gave. Yeah, can you say more? Uh? No, no, no, I can't, which brings the Soian Web to six point six versus Cloak Up Darkness is seven point five, which means aspen Star wars On's the weak. Honestly, I'm a winner because I love the Belles episodes.

1:14:57 I think that we are all winners this week through a in my discussion featuring your two most favorite track, wars hosts me an aescement. That's true, your favorites. Uh. But you know, sometimes we're not the only one that have correspondents. Sometimes we have Patreon members that shoots some messages from Arizona Mark in regards to our seemingly defunct segment Brother Watch Arizona Mark Suns. I have a confession to make. I'm Dave Filoni secret brother. Stop it no, sorry, it's a defunct segment.

1:15:38 I don't We never said it was going to be defunct. Sounds defunct to me. I still think we should go for it, but I mean, maybe it's defunct truly, now that we know the troops. See it's pretty defunct. Okay. We also have from user Feliat. I don't know who that is in regards to for the world is Hollow, and I have touched the sky versus bombat Jedi uh user Feeliat said I'll have for world Aloe and I touched this guy. It's much better than what I kept saying. I appreciate that. It's very good. From the contact form on our website. What I know. We have contact form on the track Wars website track warspod dot com slash someone being nice contact uh It's up to you ass and from uh user Michael Samron.

1:16:28 If Jimmy cracked corn but I don't care, why are we talking about it? Thanks for using the contact form, Michael. Yeah. A really good question though, because I think really probably like inherent to that is that we do care. We're just like it's more like we're saying like I don't air, but like you know, when you secretly do really care? Well yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah beautiful. You can use our contact form. I didn't even know. Oh yeah, absolutely it was a insult. Do we have any correspondents from Austin Aaron. I feel like we got an email recently from Austin Aaron.

1:17:10 I think so. Austin Aaron, Austin Aaron. All log into We'll see who finds it first. Hi, personhood Amongst the Stars. I think we've read that one before June eleventh. I don't know. Him. Sorry, I couldn't. I can't log in your Countess temporary unavailable, so I can't see it. All right, we'll cover it, and we're double covering it. Sorry to use this language. Stuff you Personhood amongst the Stars, Hi Aspin and Kenny. Great discussion on racism and personhood and the Star Wars and Star Treks. How do you feel about our heroes and where they each stand on droid personhood and clone personhood? Is acceptance of droid hood and clone hood simply a way of tagging a character as good. I e. Han goes from clearly bigoted towards to begrudgingly accepting of c Threepo over the course of three movies, mirroring his rogue to hero journey. Though, to be fair and forced Awakens he didn't recognize c three po because he had that right arm. Yeah, Obi Wan is in love with Cody, which shows why he's everyone's favorite uncle, et cetera, whistle Bee, click whorre Austin Aaron ps R two D two is my favorite. I can remember my young self watching Star Wars endlessly on ret via VHS, getting calmer and happier anytime R two was

1:18:40 on the screen. Of course, he's also a Mersus Killer and the true immortal puppet master of the Skywalker saga. Sorry Shrieve, it's true. Yeah, I don't think we've talked about this because I would have remembered that. So sorry that we got to this so late. No, sorry, sorry. I have some initial quick thoughts. I would I would love to hear them. That'd be weird if I was like, no, thank you. No, thank you. There's an interesting framed that way, which I do really like. I think clones, despite their you know, they're like killing, militaristic and like battle power, right, what clones and droids framed that way, they feel like they they are and they are they kind of like marginalized groups and they're they are groups with less power. So I do think it it there is a like as as you know Aaron wrote that, I was just like, yeah, it's true, Like to kind of show them kindness like feels like it is it's effectively doing the like save the cat, right, because it's like when it's the way that you treat people or droids or whoever, it might be who with like less power than you, less social status, whatever, it might be less money, who knows like peopleople who don't have as much or like marginalized groups, like with a genuine compassion and kindness like humanizes you. And if you can grow to be that kind of person, it

1:20:11 shows that humanity even more strongly. And that's kind of I think in that way. Yeah, but that's kind of based on the way that you frame that. That's my kind of first impression. I find it. I think I've said this thought on previous episodes. I find it extremely dicey whenever you're like, droids deserve personhood, not because I don't think that droids deserved personhood, but the way that the Droids are treated to the original trilogy suddenly makes actions way more dicey because I'm like, oh, no, these characters that I've loved for so long. Right, because like, the other side of it has to be true, is that when characters that we love are cruel to them, like it's like now like oh wow, yeah, kick the dog situation, But it's so we have to presume both at the same time.

1:21:02 And then not only that that wasn't even in the mind's eye of where Star Wars was at that point. So whenever you recontextualize that, then it's unfortunate to an older text because they were like, what if we just gave a trash can legs? And that was the thinking because they were like, this looks cool it, So I guess I'm thinking about it. It on out of roy as opposed to Inner World. But Kenny, in the Return of the Jedi, they're literally torturing droids, yeah, and showing them to have feeling, like literal sensory inputs to be able to like have their feet burned. So like, at least by that film and the original trilogy, there's a certain like and that's kind of done for a laughs, but like is it like there's a real horror for three po right, like to see this thing and it's supposed to be this as a threat, So it's true. And also they're obviously just not thinking about it, right, They're just not thinking about it.

1:21:59 There's no thought that we were putting it into it. So I think we have to do that thing where we sort of derive our own sort of value and meaning from it based on all the contacts that we have now and then. What an outstanding email. Austin Aaron always has us really good emails. I really appreciate, thank you, thank you, but he's not necessarily our favorite patron. All of our patrons are our favorite patrons, including Timbo de Sosa, Emily Brice, Love, Haii Rogers, Kevin Miller, Arizona, Mark, Austin Aaron, and lastly, but certainly not least, the Jolty partner who composed our I Starship theme song. Our main and ending theme song was composed by mister Toustin Alifesso, So please go patrons some of his wares by going down to the show notes down below. You can click on the link and visit what else we're doing. If you would like to see actions such as this, please head over to our brand new YouTube channel, YouTube dot com slash at trek Wars Pod I believe is the handle, and if that doesn't work, then go to the show notes that this very episode and hop over there.

1:23:12 I'm sure you're right, I imagine. I'm pretty sure that I'm right, Kitty. Not to interrupt your thing, but like this episode. By the time when this episode comes out this Friday, are we are we going to this Friday, We're going to be about to be doing forty eight hours of straight improv. Yeah, that's all. I just wanted to let people know the stupid thing we're doing. Yeah, yeah, for charity. For charity, I believe that you can go over to hideout Theater dot com and no matter whenever you listen to this episode, go to hideout theater dot com and shoot their Building Connections program a couple of bucks, because it's teaching folks that are.

1:23:54 Kids, Yeah near a spicy kids, near diverging kids. You're divergent kids, spicy kids, of the art of improv. And at least within my personal life, I won't speak about Aspen's experience, but I've gone from someone that is extremely scared about life to someone that is a lot more willing to put myself through difficult challenges because I see something spiritually worthwhile. On the other which sounds high poalutin, and it certainly is, but life is extremely hard, and this is one thing that helps a lot of people make life a little bit less hard. So head on over to Hideouttheater dot com and throw their Building Connections program a couple bucks. Yeah, and also, you know, look up Kenny Madison and Venmo shoot me a couple bucks.

1:24:40 That's fine. Yeah, if yeah you're not here, you can stream certain I guess, I don't know. They'll probably be streaming some anyway. We're it's a Sally thing for us too. But it's lovely. We'll do it together. It's lovely. And I love you Aspen. I love you. I'll see you soon. I'll see you soon. Maybe force be with you and live long and prosper. Oh my gosh, I didn't even talk about freaking Paul Deni on this episode because I did extra research outside of just the polony Zonie. Oh no, Paul Deani regarding Henry Gilroy, Henry Gilroy, because I had to do extra textual analysis outside of just the polony Zoni.

1:25:31 I had to go looking for a stop because Paul Deini famously wrote on he walks and dryds. So not only are they getting a heavy hitter because he did Batman and you know all of that stuff. He's coming back into the Star Wars fold. Uh. Henry Gilroy threw the story to Paul Deinie's way, Paul Deini says, No, Henry offered the story with me specifically in mind, ask me you might want to grab onto something. All right? He said, you right, good, sassy girls. Well you have ben Asga episode and I'd love to see you take a crack at her. What he writes, sassy girls, good.

1:26:12 You right, sassy girls, it's not wrong, but also like I don't hate it. That's terrible that I don't hate it. That's funny enough. And Pontini also talking about now I feel I can finally say I worked on the real Star Wars. Yes, I worked at the ranch for nearly four years on Ewok's Androids. This is the most information that we've gotten on the behind the scenes productions on Ewoks and Droids. Four years, four years, four years. But it wasn't the same. Those shows fell under the control of the very restrictive network broadcast standards at the time, and they could never be anything than basic Saturday morning cartoons. Some nice animation in some of them, but pretty much kids stop. Clone Wars is the real thing, with a stunning artistic vision, the characters for life in that state.

1:27:02 Wow, I wish we had that when we were talking about Ewoks and Droids. Also, and then we'll end the episode real quick, beef. I got beef. Yeah. A More Civilized Age, great podcast. They say that Paul Deini's great at condensing three acts. Structors TV is not three acts. Okay, I believe you. Do your research. More civilized age doesn't know anything. No, no, yeah, no it's not true. You know, you know so much. You're so good. Okay, I love yours